Defensive driving site - your source of information and the place to share your experience
 Home    Save Gas    Forums    Encyclopedia    Articles    Polls    Videos    
Our Videos

Most Viewed Video How
How to sit properly while driving - Low Res

Latest Video Driving
Driving around slippery corner in Croatia

Highest Rated Video Driving
Driving in Moscow

 
Main Menu
· Home
· Articles
· Driving Links
· Encyclopedia
· Forums
· Highway Surveys
· Mapquest Driving Directions
· Video Library
 
Drivers Info
Welcome, Anonymous
Nickname
Password
(Register)
Drivers Online:
Visitors: 33
Member Drivers: 0
Total: 33
 

View unanswered posts
View next topic
View previous topic
Post new topic   Reply to topic
Author Message
GerardWon
Master Racer



Joined: May 10, 2011
Posts: 46
Location: NYC Area

PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 7:07 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Astraist wrote:
Yes, we have two different perspectives, also because some of my experience is off-track -- on rally stages, both tarmac and gravel. However, I believe that the difference is in the approach or mind set more than in the actual performance. It's like little differences of driving styles between two competitive drivers, that end up with the same results on the timer.

By the way, ice is always considered an "extremity." The whole driving technique changes when you drive on ice (and likewise on an epoxy skidpad that simulates ice). You need to avoid weight transfers and use the clutch when you slide.

I am under no way a great driver, but I know some very unique competitive drivers who are also masterful trainers. Here's one, Lior Levi. He raced in France in JMC racing (Jean Marie's team), and was the first none-German to win the ADAC scholarship. He is a great coach and here you can see his method of instructing and how he clearly teaches to trail brake, on the road.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ernvIRVbti0

I also agree that driving from and to the track is in times more dangerous than the track driving itself. That's why, along with teaching performance driving (which we do on public roads because we don't have a track in Israel), we teach advanced driving for improving the safety of normal drivers. We work on car control but also on facilitating anticipation (by looking further ahead, a known racing technique) and preaching for proper tire maintenance, proper driving position and certain ways of utilizing the steering and pedals.


Watched the vid. Yeah I can Demonstrate Trail Braking on the road. Hell I can Demonstrate driving sidesways in the rain while whistling a happy tune Because We learned this at the race track.

Anyway...

Good luck with your driving.

be seeing you in my rearview mirrors sometime.

GerardWon
View user's profile Send private message
myownworld
Site Admin
Site Admin



Joined: Jan 06, 2010
Posts: 485

PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 10:13 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Welcome to Fun And Safe Driving GerardWon. Thank you for joining our site Smile

btw. lol sure it's not Shumacher we're talking to here? Very Happy
View user's profile Send private message
Astraist
Master Driver



Joined: Mar 27, 2010
Posts: 209

PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 4:21 am Reply with quote Back to top

GerardWon wrote:


Watched the vid. Yeah I can Demonstrate Trail Braking on the road. Hell I can Demonstrate driving sidesways in the rain while whistling a happy tune Because We learned this at the race track.


My point was that if a glorious instructor like him teaches to do it like that, than it can't be wrong. When I was exposed to the European world of racing, I was surprised to find that people did not base their technique and driving style on logic and physics, their claims were: "My instructor said X", "I saw him do Y" and I've come to consider these kind of claims to be as reliable as all the logic in the world. So, if Lior teaches to drive like this, than so do I.

I also find his method of instructing to be fascinating. He is constantly commenting and "beating" the instructions into the trainee's head by saying it repeadetly in a predescribed manner. He is considered an exceptional driver and coach in our region.

GerardWon wrote:

Good luck with your driving.

be seeing you in my rearview mirrors sometime.

GerardWon


I hope you would (if I come to race in the US sometime).
View user's profile Send private message
GerardWon
Master Racer



Joined: May 10, 2011
Posts: 46
Location: NYC Area

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:18 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Astraist wrote:
Yes, we have two different perspectives, also because some of my experience is off-track -- on rally stages, both tarmac and gravel. However, I believe that the difference is in the approach or mind set more than in the actual performance. It's like little differences of driving styles between two competitive drivers, that end up with the same results on the timer.

By the way, ice is always considered an "extremity." The whole driving technique changes when you drive on ice (and likewise on an epoxy skidpad that simulates ice). You need to avoid weight transfers and use the clutch when you slide.

I am under no way a great driver, but I know some very unique competitive drivers who are also masterful trainers. Here's one, Lior Levi. He raced in France in JMC racing (Jean Marie's team), and was the first none-German to win the ADAC scholarship. He is a great coach and here you can see his method of instructing and how he clearly teaches to trail brake, on the road.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ernvIRVbti0

I also agree that driving from and to the track is in times more dangerous than the track driving itself. That's why, along with teaching performance driving (which we do on public roads because we don't have a track in Israel), we teach advanced driving for improving the safety of normal drivers. We work on car control but also on facilitating anticipation (by looking further ahead, a known racing technique) and preaching for proper tire maintenance, proper driving position and certain ways of utilizing the steering and pedals.


Yeah proper driving position -- very important that! But its a bit difficult to generically offer advice on a forum of what is proper. I'm refering to the vastly different body proportions of people and also what specific vehicle (car) they are drivinng.

Would you agree that the proper position is seldom the most comfortable?

Also I'm curious do you advocate the shuffle steer method? I know most law enforcement agencies here in the states teach this: I''m told one of the main reasons is because of the danger of the airbags snapping your arms when they deploy.

I do not use the shuffle steer method myself. It feels alien to me.
View user's profile Send private message
Astraist
Master Driver



Joined: Mar 27, 2010
Posts: 209

PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 4:57 am Reply with quote Back to top

A good driving position has to achieve defined purposes. As such, it can be achieved through defined steps. I can describe the main points of it (a good chance to bring this important subject up again). Tell me where you differ than me. This should be interesting.

1. Clothes: A shirt, preferably avoid shorts or short skirts (for ladies) and with closed, thin-soled footwear.

2. The Seating: With the rump tucked deep into the corner of the seat

3. Adjustment of the seat: Should allow for full depression of all pedals with a bend in your knee (about 140 degrees). It's important to do this with the engine started and after pressing the brake pedal a few times to build up pressure.

4. Back Rake: Should be adjusted to an upright (about 110 degrees) position

5. Steering adjustments: Should be used to bring the steering itself closer to the driver and as parallel to the back angle as possible, as well as to allow a clear view of the dashboard.

6. Seat height and tilt should be adjusted for good forward vision (a distance of four fingers from the ceiling), clear view of the dash, but without harming your positioning relative to the pedals or steering. Recheck step (3) to make sure you can fully depress the brakes but still be able to push your fingers under the thigh, to ensure the seat itself does not limit your leverage on the pedals.

7. Check adjustment by placing your wrist over the wheel. If your wrist can be placed over the top of the wheel without effort and without bending your shoulder-blades forward, the adjustment is proper

8. Readjust to fit the conditions: For racing-purposes (or even driving on a winding mountain road) you can put the seat one click forward and a bit lower. On a long highway cruising kind of drive, you can put the seat a click to the back while pulling the wheel closer and lower.

9. Head Restraint: As high as your eye brows and as close to that part of the head as possible (2-3cm). To get it right, you might need to bring the backrest to a more erect angle than you need for your driving position.

10. Seatbelt: Lower part fitted snuggly over the pelvic (not the stomach) and upper part fitted directly over the acromion of the shoulder (the "socket" between your arm and neck.

12. Steering wheel grip: Palms cupping the outside diameter of the wheel with the thumbs hooked inside the wheel in their designated spots, all while maintaining a relativelly light grip.

13. Feet position: The legs should be as apart as possible. The heels should be rested on the floor of the car and the pedals should be depressed with the ball of the foot, not the toes. You should be able to pivot the right foot over the heel between the gas and brake, while keeping the left foot on the left footrest for support.

14. Interior mirror: Always stock! Should be adjusted for the clearest view of the whole rear windscreen.

15. Side mirrors: Adjusted out so the edges of the car are not seen at all in the mirror. Some cars have assymetrical side mirrors, in which case you should compensate by opening the smaller mirror further outward by clicking on the electronic adjustment with three more short clicks.

If the left (driver's side) mirror is smaller than the right mirror, than bring your head towards it, as far towards the window, and you should just bearly be able to see the edge of your own car. If it's the right mirror which is the smaller one, you should be able to see your own car with your head placed in the center of the car (in line with the interior mirror mount).

This method should, after a few weeks of getting used to it, prove to be not only the one that offers most control and better protection in a collision, but also the most comfortable one! If your seat is too far, for instance, than your knees will be outstretched and tired and your lower back will be pulled forward. Also, you will not have the ability to apply enough torque through the knee as to press the pedal hard enough in an emergency and third, in a collision, the shock will be omitted into the bones of the now bolt-straight limb and break it.

About steering techniques: I won't invest so much time about teaching a certain steering technique for an average driver. I would be satisfied if his/hers own style of turning is smooth, controlled, uses both hands and makes big hand movements rather than small ones. However, I do teach more advanced trainees with a specific steering method. Mind you, this is not shuffle steering, hand-over-hand steering or fixed-grip steering! These are the three most basic techniques (what most drivers already know), but in fact there are several other "advanced" techniques which offer a greater range of motion, better feel and better control.

My particular method is shared with all my colleagues in Israel and it is based on a classic steering method used in rally driving. The idea is to identify upcoming corners in advance, predict the necessary amount of steering input (before the bend itself!) and relocating the inside hand to pull the wheel so that, after turning in, your hands are again in the quarter to three position, and the same hand movement in reverse when coming back out of the corner. The technique is described in detail in my blogpost.

With this technique you can move the steering as much as a full turn with a single hand motion, all while always having both hands on the wheel and having at least one hand gripping and guiding the wheel, and maintaining the right positioning of the hands for the longer amount of time possible (which also helps with the airbag) and using the force of the arms in a more intelligent way (pulling the wheel from across is more sensitive than pushing it over). Another instructor recently showed me how to use it in a refined way for quick steering manuevers (like applying opposite lock).

I don't like the shuffle steering because it often results in small hand movements and an unsmooth manuever, lacks the ability to steer quickly, makes the steering to laboured and awkward. I recommend you give "my" technique a try. It can really improve your everyday driving and your performance driving, too.

For clarification (and credibility) purposes, a few video demonstrations by the most upheld race drivers and advanced driving trainers in my country (and one from Romania) :

- Driving position demonstrated by Re'm Samuel (Champion of France in Group-N road rallying in 1993, first-ever diabetic race driver).

- Driving Position demonstrated by O'n Yakobson Who instructed at Russel Racing (at Laguna Seca) and competed therein in Formula Mazda in 2000, later competed in the 12 hours race of SpaFrancorchamps.

- Mirror adjustment demonstrated by Re'm.

- Mirror adjustment and risks of convex mirrors by Itay Alon, who instructed in the prestigious French rally school at GET.

- Proper steering demonstrated by Itay

- Steering Technique demonstrated by Titi Aur, renouned Romanian Rally Driver (trained at GET).


Last edited by Astraist on Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:51 am; edited 2 times in total
View user's profile Send private message
Huoncloutier
Member
Member



Joined: May 02, 2011
Posts: 24
Location: USA

PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:17 am Reply with quote Back to top

Now you have the chance to pick a training program concerning the teens driving safety course, seniors driving safety course or handicapped people driving safety course.
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:       
Post new topic   Reply to topic

View next topic
View previous topic
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001-2006 phpBB Group
:: Theme & Graphics by Daz :: Ported for PHP-Nuke by nukemods.com ::
All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Forums ©
 
Defensive Driving | Contact us | Privacy policy | Terms of Use | Texas Defensive Driving
Forums RSS Feed
NJ Defensive Driving | New York Defensive Driving| Fuel Economy



Page Generation: 0.10 Seconds
Fun and Safe Driving © 2006-2019